Same-Sex Attraction, Identity, and the Christian Life with Jackie Hill Perry
On today’s episode of the Journeywomen podcast, I’m chatting with Jackie Hill Perry about same-sex attraction, identity, and the Christian life. We talked about everything from how we can engage people in a homosexual lifestyle with the gospel to how our identity as believers is literally transformed by the gospel. I think my favorite part of this conversation may have been when Jackie and I got real about what it’s like to study the Word and grow in our theology as mamas to little, tiny people. Overall, our conversation is just rich with gospel-centered encouragement.
I’m telling you guys, Jackie brought the heat! So you’ll know her a little better, Jackie Hill Perry is a writer, poet, and artist whose work has been featured in places like the Washington Times, The 700 Club, Desiring God, The Gospel Coalition, and many others. Since becoming a Christian in 2008, she has been compelled to use her speaking and teaching gifts to share the light of the gospel of God as authentically as she can. It totally shines through in this conversation. At home, she is a wife to Preston and Mommy to Eden and Autumn.
Can you tell us a little about who you are and what you do?
So, this is the journeywomen podcast. What has your journey with Jesus looked like up until this point?
Looking back, how was God pursuing you, even in your darkest days?
How does God love us by exposing us? What did this look like in your life?
What does allowing our desire to rule over us do to us? Why does desire exist?
How do we all bear the imprint of Adam?
How can we combat sin with the gospel? How are we "kept by the gospel"?
How can someone's identity be transformed by the gospel?
After submitting to the Lord, how did you react to sin and temptation?
What role did prayer play in your ability to combat sin and temptation?
How can we, as Christians, preach joy? What is it like to want God more than anything else?
What helped you to unravel the misconceptions you believed about womanhood?
What are some practical tips for the church regarding how we can love LGBTQs?
THREE QUESTIONS I ASK EVERY GUEST
What 3 resources would you recommend for someone struggling with same-sex attraction or for someone who wants to learn more about how they can love Christians struggling with same-sex attraction?
What are your 3 simple joys?
Who has had the greatest impact on your own journey with Jesus?
NOTEWORTHY QUOTES
“For the wages of sin is death is actual. This isn’t a theory that this might happen. No, this is to be believed. And I felt like I had no choice but to believe him. I think when you see Jesus rightly in all of his glory, the veil was lifted, and I saw that he was worthy of my affections and worthy of my body and worthy of my mind and worthy of my soul and worthy of all that I am and all that I have to give. It was like ‘why would I give sin that? As if it could offer me eternal life?’”
“I sin because I am a sinner. I need to not only stop these particular sins, I actually need to be made right and be made different so I won’t walk in them anymore.”
“God has given us desires for his glory. All things were created through and for him, which Colossians 1:16 says, including my affection, including my heart, including my emotions. My desires are not safe in an idols arms. They weren't made for that. That’s not healthy, that’s scary actually. And we’ve all seen what happens when put our desires and affections on something not worthy of it.”
“But when we allow him to govern our affections, instead of our flesh to govern our affections, I think what we have is wholeness. We have self control, we have peace, we have kindness, we have love. We don’t walk in them because we have to but because we can and we want to.”
“I think if I had tried to learn obedience in isolation, it would have been a failure. What would have happened, is every time I failed, I wouldn’t have had anyone to tell me, ‘1. That’s normal. 2. This is how you get up. 3. This is how you continue.’ Having older saints that I could look to and having saints in the same season that I could walk with and have empathy from was great.”
“What God wants me to do is to continually remember the gospel and glean from the gospel as it relates to my temptations, or my desires, or my trials, or my sufferings, or even my victories, in that even in my victories I can be thankful for it where I can thank him truly instead of saying, ‘I did this.’”
“It shouldn’t be easy to do something so contrary to your nature, which is to live holy.”
“When I read Hebrews, it is saying because of his resistance and his victory over it, he can now empathize with me in my attempts to resist, in my struggle against weakness and sin. When I struggle, I remember that 1. Jesus understands and 2. That Jesus was victorious. So I don’t have to have shame because I struggle, but, because he was victorious, I can be victorious, too.”
“Prayer is huge. Look at Jesus, who was sinless and holy, and he prayed more than anybody. All the time. To not pray is to cheat ourselves out of a true intimacy and fellowship with God.”
“There is a level of pursuit and vulnerability that has to be there when it comes to learning from people that are older than us. Sometimes the assumption is they have to come to me. They have to check on me and ask how I’m doing. It’s asking ‘hey can we meet for coffee? I have some questions about marriage.’”
“I learned this from an older woman. I try to invite God into the mundane things that I’m doing. The time that I’m praying for my family is when I’m washing dishes. That is my time to pray for them. I take that time to be intentional with meeting with God. It’s not even realistic to think that I am always going to have a prayer closet and be on my face. But I am washing dishes.”
“You are thinking all the time. You are able to talk to God all the time. The question is, ‘is he on my heart?’ If I’m not speaking with him or inviting him into my moments, even the boring, unspiritual moments, the problem isn’t the situation or the circumstances. It’s my heart.”
“The best thing we can do is love people, not based on their sexuality, but based on them being image bearers of the living God. That shapes then how we love them and engage with them on the gospel. Because God is not just after someone’s sexuality. He is after their entire life. He wants their whole person. If I’m only ministering to you on the basis of being gay and not on the basis of being an image bearer of God, meaning that you are made for him and Christ has died so that you can know him, then my whole evangelism is flawed.”
JACKIE'S RESOURCES FOR CONTENTMENT
The Book of Romans
The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert by Rosaria Champagne Butterfield
Is God Anti-Gay? by Sam Allberry
What Does the Bible Really Teach About Homosexuality? By Kevin DeYoung
OTHER RESOURCES
Gay Girl, Good God: The Story of Who I Was, and Who God Has Always Been by Jackie Hill Perry
Episode 28 on A Foundation for Understanding Sexuality with Chris Legg
JACKIE'S SIMPLE JOYS
Food Network
Cold Brew Coffee
Documentaries (most recently God Grew Tired of Us)
IMPORTANT NOTE
Journeywomen interviews are intended to serve as a springboard for continued study in the context of your local church. While we carefully select guests each week, interviews do not imply Journeywomen's endorsement of all writings and positions of the interviewee or any other resources mentioned.
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